January 1, 2012

Rev. Dr. Steve Poos-Benson

Stump the Pastor

Mitch and I were talking about what to do for this service on New Year’s Day and we said “stump the pastor”. That would be a lot of fun and do a hymn sing. And I said what Scripture passage should I use for “stump the pastor.” And this passage came to me from Acts. It really has no significance other than it’s a little on the funny side. What the passage is, the Apostle Paul has gone out and he’s been arrested and he’s being taken different places and tried and tried and tried by different courts. And this one ruler, his name is Festus, and I forget exactly what he was, but he and Paul knew each other and he says something to Paul that I really love because it always rings in my head that I’ve got all this education and all these degrees and ultimately it amounts to “piled higher and deeper.” Sometimes it’s a hill of beans. And Festus says something to Paul that just always resonates with me and tell me if you can figure out what the line is that resonates with me. Alright, here we go.

“That was too much for Festus, he interrupted with a shout. Paul, you’re crazy. You’ve read too many books, spent too much time staring off into space. Get a grip on yourself. Get back in the real world. But Paul stood his ground. With all respect, your honor, I am not crazy. I’m both accurate and sane with what I’m saying. The King knows what I’m talking about. I’m sure that nothing of what I’ve said sounds crazy to him. He’s known all about it for a long time. You must realize this wasn’t done behind the scenes. You believe the prophets, don’t you? King Agrippa? Don’t answer that. I know you believe. But Agrippa did answer. Keep this up much longer and you’ll make a Christian out of me. Paul, still in chains, said that’s what I’m praying for, whether now or later, and not only you but everyone listening today to become like me, except, of course, for this prison jewelry.”

Isn’t that a fun passage? And may God bless those words as you try to stump me. This is going to be a lot of fun. What I’m going to try to do is – if I can’t answer these questions, if I run out of time, I will start blogging some of these. Hopefully, you’ve paid attention to the fact that I have a blog – Cowboy Jesus – you can find it on the website – I haven’t posted since before Christmas, but you can always find a lot of the answers here.

Q. Why do bad things happen to good people?

A. My answer to that is, things happen. Good, bad, indifferent. It just doesn’t mean that you’re good or bad, it just means that things happen. Life happens. Life is full of accidents that come crashing into life. I don’t think that there’s one question about punishment –if you’re trying to live a good and moral life and a bad thing happens to you, it does not mean that God is punishing you. I don’t think - I just know that God doesn’t work that way. If God does work that way – you know what – I wouldn’t be following this God. And I wouldn’t be teaching you to follow this God. Because I don’t believe a good, moral God goes – Fred Mahe needs to learn a lesson and Fred suddenly stumbles and falls or Fred has cancer – the good and moral God that I believe in doesn’t work that way, so it’s not that bad things happen to good people, it’s just that things happen. Good and bad. In fact, one of the things that I love about – the Buddhist tradition – what I’m trying to borrow from Buddhist teaching is to quit labeling things good and bad. Because as soon as you label things good and bad, you’ve actually set up a category for yourself about how you’re going to respond to the situation. Instead, they would just say “this is the situation that I have to respond to, that I have to work to within the middle of my life.” And I know then that I bring my Christian perspective in and I say “Okay, if this is the situation, I’m not going to label it good and bad. I know that God is with me and that God is going to empower me to deal appropriately with this situation. I will have everything I need at hand to deal with the situation. And those things that I need at hand could be the people on my left and on my right.”

Q. Why do we park in driveways and drive on parkways? [laughter]. Rich Schreiber.

Q. How does invitro fertilization with donor eggs fit into the thesis that God pre-knew the…

A. It goes back to my book on “Sent”. I can’t read that word but I want to deal with this. One of the theological questions that I really wrestle with – just quickly for those of you who missed the sermon series back in the fall that God has sent us. I believe that God pre-knew every single individual, even before there was a sperm and an egg coming together, that God held the luminescence of our soul and then he launched us into the world. So the very first question that people wrestle with is what about invitro fertilization where there’s only one or two eggs and the rest of the eggs are harvested but all of them are fertilized. The best I can answer this question as I’ve come to it, and I haven’t completely got it all the way answered. But what I look at is that everything at this point is potential. Everything is potential. That God has held the luminescence of the soul and then launched it. A sperm and an egg come together and created the beginnings of the human being. So that all those eggs – not all, but some of those eggs are fertilized, others are implanted and a few of them are harvested by doctors so that the healthiest live forth. Just because an egg is removed, doesn’t mean that soul is lost. In the same way that your soul is not lost in the middle of your life. You are driving down the road – like we have a prayer request from Sue Broyles that last night in Anchorage – Paul and Sue – are you here? They’re friends were walking home in Anchorage, Alaska after a party and they were struck by a drunk driver and are in serious condition in the hospital. So, in my mind, that situation is really no different – accidental – kind of intentional by a doctor harvesting – that’s interesting – I haven’t thought through that one. But for me, it’s kind of the same. So there’s an accident that happens. Even if they had died. Life is not lost. Life is never lost by God. One of the questions is what is the meaning of death? Death is transition. So that death, whether it happens when you’re 52, 68, 95 or in the beginning, it’s still potential that is never lost. A little bit of physics – Susan – the second law of thermodynamics is energy is neither – can never be lost – something like that? [inaudible by member of the congregation] Okay – so things are always moving forward, there’s always potential. And that potential can never be lost. So, kind of thinking on my feet, that’s how I would answer that, but it’s a good question that I’ve tried to wrestle with in one of my chapters of my book that I hope to publish this coming year.

Q. How do you deal with such a variety of faith in members?

A. Very carefully. That’s why I wanted to do this sermon series on faith development, because once you understand James Fowler’s stages of faith, which is a book I’m going to be using, you begin to see how there are so many different people in their “Stages of Faith.” And when I’m preaching or teaching, I’m very mindful, I try to think about where a person is in their stage of faith. If I can figure out where you are you your stage of faith, I automatically know the vocabulary that you’re going to be using, the issues that you’re going to be working with. I teach a class on faith development at Regis University for these people who are working with people, I teach it to counselors or people who want to be counselors and are in their masters program. They suddenly go “Oh my gosh, I kind of get it.” So, for me, it’s kind of understanding where you might be in your faith development and trying to aim things – language, vocabulary, theological concepts for you in your life because I have one desire. My ultimate desire is to move you in your faith development. That’s a strong bias that I have - to help you advance in your faith development. And if it’s too difficult, I let Mitch deal with it.

Q. Do you always have a cheery disposition?

A. Yes – ask my wife, ask my kids. I try to be positive. I’ve had to look at life and I say “Okay, everything comes to you – you can choose for me – I have to remind myself – it’s a choice. I choose to be positive.” When terrible things happen, I try to let go of the word “terrible” and say “Okay, this has happened. How can I be positive. How can I be optimistic?” You develop a positive mojo around something.

Q. What is your favorite food?

A. My last meal. T-bone steak, medium rare, sweet potato, asparagus, salad, ranch dressing. Ahh. And I will lay down and die.

Q. What are your horses’ names?

A. My horses’ names are Sug, Magic and Sadie.

Q. When are you going to retire?

A. Hopefully not soon. It says – that’s a question a lot of people ask me. They say you’ve been here for 28 years – when are you going to leave? And I always say “I don’t know.” I don’t know. I’ve said this from the first day I came here. I operate on behalf of God. I work on behalf of God. And God will tell me when it’s time to move on. And God will tell me through a relationship with you that you and I have together, a relationship that God and I have together, the relationship that I have with the Presbytery of Denver, and kind of together we’ll make that decision as far as how long we’re going to stay. I know that officially I want to stay as clergy until I’m 65 because I have a pension, just like you all – or like some of you do.

Q. What’s your favorite fruit?

A. I love apples.

Q. Does God really care who wins the game?

A. There are actually several questions – does God have an impact on the outcome of Broncos games – Tim Tebow or Kyle Orton? Let me just deal with a few of these. I find this fascinating, because it’s a reflection of people in their stages of faith. People in stage two and stage three faith, will believe that God does have an impact on the game and that if you’re good enough or pray hard enough, especially people in stage two, we hope that people move out of stage two sometime around 9 or 10 years old – but some adults – seriously – some adults stay in that stage of faith their entire life. And if people who are at that stage of faith do believe that God has some impact on who wins or does not win a particular football game. I think we have a lot of athletes who are at a stage two or stage three because they’re praying so hard to God to win this game.

This whole thing with Tim Tebow this past fall, I have found so fascinating. There’s been so many different, wonderful people responding. My favorite was “If God cares about Tim Tebow winning or not winning the football game, we are in a lot worse a predicament than any of us can imagine. That was my favorite.

But real quickly, what I love about Tim Tebow – I read a blog by a guy and what the attraction to Tim Tebow is. And he says this. It’s a combination of three things. One, you have a marvelously gifted athlete. Nobody can take away that Tim Tebow is a marvelously gifted athlete. Then on top of that you have somebody who is very, very public about their faith. And the third is that you have a country that is dying for a hero. That is dying for a knight in shining armor hero. So you have somebody like Tim Tebow who has this magnetic personality, a huge personality who is very vocal about his faith. They talked about when he was at the University of Florida and how the other college kids just flocked to him because of his personality. His very public faith. He got many, many people from the university to join with him in volunteer efforts. He lives his very public faith. He tries to bring his life as close as he can to what he believes in. He’s a gifted athlete, you cannot make (except for last Sunday when he fumbled… – but I think that’s just a rookie) – but I think he’s a gifted athlete. And then you take our culture who hungers for a hero. Hungers for a knight in shining armor, that we can emulate – we want so much to emulate a somebody. And our political personages are difficult or it’s really difficult for our republicans to emulate a democrat or democrat to emulate a republican – people who we put in high places fall, and everybody turns out to be a human being. One of the things I feel bad for Tim Tebow – he’s what 24? And he’s got this magnifying glass on him. He’s a human being. I’m a human being. I’ve got some serious flaws. You’re a human being. You have some serious flaws. So it’s fascinating when we take an individual like a Tim Tebow and we raise him up and then you look at those three things, and for me, I just find it fascinating. As I told my daughter, my money is on the Chiefs, my heart is with the Broncos.

Q. Do you believe that our pets will meet us in Heaven?

A. Absolutely. If you’re an animal person and you spend any time with animals, you know the intensity – you know there’s something beyond the animal that is just this surface reality. I even believe that about wild animals. People have had visions of them in Heaven – animals in Heaven. I’ve done a thing with people where I take them on kind of an out of body experience where I lay them down on the floor, get them relaxed and then they – I take them on a voyage where they actually step back out of their body and have a time where they actually go and meet Jesus and people have told me that when they come out of their body, they have the ethereal experience that they have suddenly seen animals from their past come bounding up to them. And they kind of believe that this is a sign for me. There are several questions about Heaven.

Q. Do you believe we see loved ones who have died in Heaven?

A. Another is about this “Is Heaven for Real?” Do I believe it’s true? Here’s what I believe about Heaven. One person asked “Is Heaven a Place?” We know this much. It’s like there’s this huge curtain and we’ve been able to peek through the curtain. If you’ve ever read the book “90 Minutes in Heaven” – another fascinating book. It’s about a minister who is leaving a conference for ministers and he is actually run over by an 18 wheeler this snowy, wintery day, and this 18 wheeler loses control and literally runs right over him and he’s dead. And the paramedics come and other ministers are there and he’s clinically dead for 90 minutes. And the book is about what happens to him in those 90 minutes. What I found fascinating about this book is that it corroborated several other things that I’ve read, conversations that I’ve had with people who have died, been clinically dead and come back, and what I have been able to put together, with just my conversations and reading that I’ve done, is that when we die - one person asked is there a holding place. No. There’s no purgatory that we hang out in for a length of time. That we literally go from here to something. Like we step into a something, and I have seen a soul rise up out of a body. I have seen kind of an apparition – one time I was dealing with a family. We were very intense on – we had to actually find this person’s Naval discharge paper in this book and the people back in Washington, D.C. were waiting for the number so we could schedule his funeral at Ft. Logan. And they were waiting – you got to find this – you got to find this – and people we crying because this person had just died. We were in the living room, and I said “everybody take a breath, it’s in this box, we can find it.” And I looked up, and there he was. Almost plain as day, the person who had just died, and as soon as he looked up, the wife goes “Here it is.” And pulled it straight out of the box. And it’s like Phhhhhhh. And he looked at me and nodded his head and was gone. The hair stood up on the back of my neck.

And so stuff like that leads me to believe that I know there’s something that happens. So, what I’ve read is that when we die, we step out of something and then there is a welcoming committee – there’s a welcoming committee. And the welcoming committee is comprised of people that you know, people who were significant to you. Pets. I think that to bring your anxieties down, these people come rushing to you. Spouses. Parents. Grandparents. And they come to greet you. And there’s this kind of big, huge celebration of welcome home, welcome home.

People who have come back talk about intense colors. Intense beauty. Intense music and it goes beyond anything that they have seen here on earth. They have a tremendous sense of pause. A sense of peace. Many people who have come back said they had a choice. Do you want to go forward or do you want to go back? And they know that it’s just kind of their decision and several of them have chosen to go back. Others of them meet Jesus face to face and Jesus says “sorry, you go back.” This was an accident, you go back. Others, if it is their time to die, they are brought forward and they know that there is a Kingdom, for lack of a better word, that they go into and that’s all I know.

Buddhist talk about the Bardoes of Faith. Buddhism talks about – and Hinduism, talks about reincarnation. But before I get into Buddhism, the more I realize it’s not what we understand it to be. I’d better move on because I’m running out of time.

Q. Do you believe that there is any payment after death for a person who has not lead a good life?

A. No. I believe in grace. I believe in forgiveness.

Q. How do you deal with Christians who are difficult and easily offended?

A. I don’t deal with them. Seriously. I have realized that people who are difficult about their faith, angry Christians to me, that’s kind of an oxymoron – an angry Christian. How do you be an angry Christian? I have come to bring you joy so that your joy might be full. If somebody is angry and difficult, they’re not willing to listen. Not gonna listen, not gonna talk. So I bless them well and dodge them and get out of their way. Unless they seriously want to learn. Often times people say “what do I do with my sister-in-law who is over the top…. I say “Watch football. Go for a walk. Try to find a common ground to talk about and if not – religion is not a common ground if the person is not willing to learn and be open about what you believe so they can share what you believe. It’s like when Jesus says “Don’t throw your pearls toward swine.” I mean I don’t want to call your sister-in-law a pig, but, don’t take your pearls or what is valuable to you and let people traump on them. Short answer.

Q. Is being a doubting Thomas bad? Is it bad to question everything.

A. It got me to where I am. That’s a Stage Four question. Stage four is somebody who questions and doubts everything, and for this person to move in their faith, they have to question. We want to encourage you to question, we want your teenagers to question, we want your college kids to question, we want you to question. If you’re 50, 60, 70, 80 – because that’s how you move in your faith. If somebody says “don’t question”, they are in a stage three, usually it means don’t hang around them because your faith is not going to grow. Question everything.

Q. Would God want to change anything in the Bible?

A. That’s a question that would take more than what I have time for because that denotes that when God wrote the Bible God did this [Fred you’re the author, I’m going to tell you exactly what I want you to say]. And then the question denotes that God would say “Whoa did I get that wrong. I think I’m going to change that.” That’s not how I believe the Bible was written. That the Bible was written by the experiences of people in the midst of cultural history, that difficult inspiration works by people who are inspired, wrestling with their faith, wrestling with their relationship with God, in a particular context. So it’s not as if God made a mistake, it’s no, I don’t believe there are any mistakes in the Bible because it’s a reflection of people living in the midst of their context.

Now does that mean that all the books in the Bible should have been Canonized? If you ask me – no. There are several books in the Bible that I would toss out as being unhelpful for people in the midst of their faith. They’re interesting as far as a reflection of where they were in their cultural development, but I think Revelations confuses too many people. I would pitch Revelations out.

Q. What do you tell someone, a grandson, a friend, who does not believe in God?

A. I tell them – tell me what you don’t believe about. I don’t want to judge them or condemn them, I want them to tell you what you believe. When my son – both of my sons are kind of wrestling with their faith – when my son was about 15 or 16, he said “Dad, I’m not a Christian.” I said “cool”. He said “I’m a Buddhist.” I said “awesome. Let’s go to the Temple.” So when your kid questions and says they’re not a Christian, don’t go nuts. No. Tell me what you don’t believe. Tell me what you do believe. Because if you can create an environment that encourages and makes it safe for people and kids to talk about their faith, that encourages faith development. That encourages faith development.

Q. How should we deal with our painful emotions regarding a difficult family situation – children and grandchildren – beyond just zipping our lips. Praying feels inadequate.

A. Here’s what I tell grandparents. If you have a grandchild or you’re an uncle or an aunt and have a nephew or niece who is in a tough situation, you know what they need more than anything else? They need – Carla, check me on this – they need a positive, nurturing, inspiring, unconditional loving somebody that is – Carla is shaking her head yes – that they can go to. They know that Grandma and Grandpa are not going to judge them. They know that aunt and uncle are not going to judge them. Their situation is messy enough with mom or dad and what they need is a grandma or grandpa that is kind of a safe haven. That they are not going to “you got another tattoo? You were busted again for DUI? You got an F?” That’s mom & dad’s thing to wrestle with. What they need is a safe haven of somebody they can go to who will unconditionally love them. Bite your tongue until it bleeds. Be a positive source of nurturing. Would you agree with that, Carla? I go to Carla because she is not only the Director of Youth Ministries, but she is a school psychologist at Littleton High School.

Q. The Mayan calendar. Is the Mayan calendar’s end of the world prediction good or bad for my 2012 investments?

A. You know – the Mayan calendar – they ran out of clay. It’s an ancient culture.

Q. Why do Christians who believe in the same God seem to believe that only they go to Heaven?

A. It’s a stage two/stage three faith. There’s a great joke about a guy who dies and he goes to Heaven and he loves every place in Heaven, but St. Peter says go tour everything and in a week come back. So in a week he comes back and St. Peter says what did you like about Heaven. The guy says I love it, it’s a great place, I love the food, I love the company, but I don’t get the hedges. St. Peter says what do you mean the hedges. The guy says well there’s tall hedges, about 20 feet tall and I can’t peer through and St. Peter says I forgot to tell you about the hedges. Shhh. Those are the Lutherans. They think they’re the only ones here. And you can fill that in with Catholics, Presbyterians…

Q. How do you feel about suicide and God’s forgiveness?

A. I believe in unconditional positive regard. And somebody who commits suicide – one of the books I’m going to write some day is about a pastor looking at suicide. People who commit suicide are in the deepest, darkest, most painful place that you can imagine. I do not believe a God who would deal with somebody in the deepest, darkest most painful place in their life would say “Oh, sorry – you don’t get to come in.” I believe in a God of grace.

Q. Is there a hell?

A. Yes. Right here. Right here. When Jesus talked about Gahanna, which is translated as hell – when we were in Jerusalem, I wanted to see Gahanna – because Gahanna is the garbage dump outside of Jerusalem. When he was talking about Gahanna, he was talking about people who are living in the garbage dump of their lives. Heaven is a place that’s real and many people who are in the midst of it …

Q. Can somebody be saved if they don’t believe in Jesus as their Lord and Savior?

A. Stage three question. Yes. I believe in universal salvation. Read “Love Wins” by Ron Bell.

Q. Will all God’s creatures have souls?

A. Yes.

Q. Where do dinosaurs fit into the Bible context?

A. The Bible is not a history book. The Bible is not a history book to talk about how the world was literally created. The Bible is a story of the peoples’ relationships with God. It’s not supposed to say where dinosaurs were created, etc. etc. It’s like when I took my kids to the Morrison Museum and we were looking at dinosaur footprints and the museum curator says “what do you do for a living?” I said “I’m a minister.” She says “you’re a minister – what are you doing here?” She said “Seriously, she said last week there was a group that came through here – a Christian group – and the minister was saying ‘alright kids – I want you to see that these are peoples’ lies and this is God testing you and your faith to see that these were planted by God for you to see whether or not you’re going to believe in the Bible and believe in God or are you going to believe in man and man’s lies.” And my jaw dropped as many of yours are, and again, that is a reflection of a stage two/stage three faith. That’s why faith development is so important for you to understand because instead of going “how can you believe that?” and when you understand faith development, you go “I understand that – I get it.” And now that I get it, I know how to work with them.

Good questions. Was I stumped? Bless you – good questions.